Every Waking Moment
Posted on May 29, 2009 at 4:00 pmIf you’re so clueless you don’t even remember you’re carrying a deadly weapon maybe you should leave the [fudging] thing at home.
~ Southern Beale
The difference between Beale’s attitude about guns above and the one expressed by John Danneskjöld here I think reveals the unbridgeable chasm between active gun owners and the ‘civilian population’ on issues such as ‘guns in bars.’
Guns have been so fetishized and derided in our politically correct and increasingly suburbanized culture that they have transformed into this huge monster that clouds what firearms really are and always have been
To rural folks who grew up with guns in their house, firearms are just a way of life. You learn what they are, how to use them safely, and what not to use them — for ever.
They are, in fact, a tool. A dangerous tool to be sure but no more than a circular saw or a chainsaw.
Or a car. How many times when you are in a car do you think consciously, “My God, I am driving a very heavy piece of glass and steel with a tank of highly flammable liquid at high speeds near unprotected men, women and children. This a dangerous vehicle that could kill someone.”
I would hazard to guess not very often. It’s not that you don’t know those things to be true, they have just been internalized. Your brain has moved them to the background.
You know how to drive, you know what precautions to take. You don’t think about the constant danger. You don’t remind yourself constantly that you are in control of something that could possibly kill some one.
Why? Because you are in control. You know how to drive a car just as well as gun owners know how to use a gun and how to keep a weapon safely.
Most permit holders are responsible citizens. If you want to beef up the qualifications you need to hold one, I’m all for that. But don’t let your culturally ingrained prejudice toward firearms cloud your judgment.
Guns are just tools. Only in the hands of tools are they not.
Comments
75 Responses to “Every Waking Moment”
But you can’t mix driving a car with alcohol. Neither should you mix the latter with carrying a gun.
Spellcheck your last sentence, AC.
Damn fine post, BTW.
Let’s turn that spin around, AC. I grew up in small town with a gunsmith for a father. I learned how to shoot at the age of 10, so I don’t want to hear this crap.
The fact is, when you live in an urban area, most people don’t have a freaking clue how to operate a weapon properly and are more likely to get themselves killed than protect themselves.
If people had to have a license to operate their firearm (Uncle Say in 3..2..1…) and we could ensure that they knew what the hell they were doing, I might feel better about it.
That’s not the reality, though. Chances are, if someone comes at you with a gun, they’re going to have the drop on you and would be more likely to kill you if you tried to return fire, unless the first shooter is a fool.
In the country, it won’t make much difference. However, the majority of the population in Tennessee is no longer rural, it is urban and suburban, and we need to start reflecting that reality.
Well stated, AC, but I would have to also agree with the comments about mixing cars and alcohol. Are we to expect that patrons will have to declare whether or not they are carrying when arriving at the hostess stand? If they are, do they get a little stamp on their hand shaped like a gun to let the servers know they aren’t allowed alcohol? Or, does everyone else get a bulls-eye stamp?
The only problem with your analogy is that the intended purpose of a car is to tranport a person from point A to point B. 99.9 percent of the time when a car is used, no one is injured. The intended purpose of a gun is to injure or kill someone. If used correctly for its intended purpose, 100 percent of the time someone will be killed or injured.
Oh, and one more point, when was the last time you saw a person try to take a circular saw or chainsaw into a bar. These tools are for building, not destroying human life.
I’ll grant ACK’s point that most carry permit holders are responsible people, but the rest of his argument is full of wholes and displays a little bit of bias on his part.
I grew up in rural Tennnessee and have lived for most of my life in rural Tennessee. I grew up with guns and were taught that they are tools. I was also taught that guns are tools that we don’t carry around on our hips for show. Why? Because they are dangerous tools.
Somewhere around 300,000 Tennesseans have carry permits. Correct? That means about 6 MILLION Tennesseans don’t have carry permits, which means that the overwhelming majority of Tennesseans have no desire to carry guns every waking moment.
Many of us feel that way because we were taught as children that guns are dangerous tools. There are proper times and places for them. When we’re not in one of those places, we leave the tools in the tool box.
Ben FTW
I grew up in a rural area of this state and to those who know how and when do use them, know that you don’t need to have them in a bar, resturant or park
I just never have seen the point of having a gun in a resturant or bar. Is it just to have it with you? is it incase your food is cold or drink is watered down? Is it incase you had a few too many and that jackass bumps into you when he’s walking through the crowd?
You don’t get behind the wheel of a car drunk, so why should anyone be able to get behind the chamber of a loaded guy in a public place?
What is the need behind this bill? There is no need for it.
Speaker Naifeh was right to keep this legislation off the house floor for so many years.
“Most permit holders are responsible citizens.”
But is it really responsible to suggest that citizens should carry weapons in bars so they can “defend themselves” ? Think about what that really means- encouraging open shootouts in bars when people have been drinking. Chest-thumping b.s. aside, that is a ridiculous notion, by which you have to question the proponents who use this logic. So… “Only in the hands of tools are they not.”
Exactly.
Ft Campbell you know very well why some people want their guns with them at all times and it has nothing to do with what you claim. LWC most of the time people who act in a wreckless way in public are fools. So a permit holder would almost certainly be able to get the drop on them and save countless number of lives in return.
The problem is those that do not have permits will still carry their weapons into the bars, and resturants.
Permit holders are suppose to have control of their weapon. How can I keep control of my weapon if I have to leave it in my car.
Scott there you go insulting the intelligence of permit holders. You guys think their all a bunch of stupid hicks who can barely read and write. Reality is their the people who make this state work day in and day out like my sister whose an RN or my brother in law whose an IT Specialist. So continue to insult them and see what happens next November.
If you think that none needs a firearm in a resturant, you might watch this video from a congressional hearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhozRN87VRA
And by the same argument, if you’re part of a family where incest, sexual violence, and rape is part of your everyday experience, you don’t see incest as a very big deal.
But it’s still wrong.
And by the same argument, if using illicit drugs is part of your family experience, then you won’t see drug use as a big problem. It’s just a normal part of everyday life.
But it’s still illegal.
AC, I appreciate your valid perspective about differences in cultures. But the fact that something is “normal” doesn’t mean it’s healthy, or that it should be legal, or that it should be considered the right thing to do.
And I don’t appreciate you turning this into a whole “urban v. rural” class warfare thing, which is a typical “us versus them” game played to score political points and say some version of “you don’t understand because you’re different than I am.”
For many urban families, guns are also a part of daily life. They know that guns are used to protect yourself. And they also know that guns can be used to coerce, threaten, and kill.
The problem with making a state law is that EVERYONE IN THE STATE has to deal with it - including people in Memphis who are concerned about violent crime and living in close quarters. Voting in pure self-interest here is not in the best interests of the state. We ought to consider “the least of these” in our communities. And we should be able to write a better law which allows local ordinances to protect citizens while still respecting the intent and spirit of the 2nd Amendment.
TNVolunteer,
Except that’s from a Luby’s Cafeteria that does not sell alcohol and would not have been affected by this bill.
Try again.
Brass
So you are saying it is Okay to defend yourself in a Lubies, But not in Chilies or O’CHarlies.
Maybe you should try again. Permit holders in TN Number ~300,000…. Not one has committed a Felony.
No Wild West Shootouts
Permit holders are the one’s you should want to be carrying. Because they have Been:
1. Trained
2. Shown they Respect the law
3. Proven they Obey the law
4. Proven they are not a threat to society.
TN Volunteer,
Not one felon among the bunch? Oh really?
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/aug/03/wrong-fingers-are-on-the-triggers/
If you mentioned all the other states that allow carry in bars without significant issues, we’d find common ground there.
But don’t put down bullshit that’s so easy to disprove. That’s twice just today that you’ve done this.
Brass okay 1 out of 300,000… That is a Crime Wave
it is Illegal to Carry your weapon when drinking.
From the Story you posted.
“Since the reviews began earlier this year, the Department of Safety has sent out 99 permit-revocation letters statewide, though not all are for felony convictions. Some permits are being revoked because of DUI charges and orders of protection.”
The system has been improved since the 2006 incident
Plus if the Government had listened to the NRA, There would have been an instant Background check BEFORE he could purchase the firearm.
Dont Blame the NRA for failures of The Bredesen and Federal Governments.
Sorry Brass, You did not blame the NRA that was another poster.. My Bad..
TN Volunteer,
I hope you’re right about “the system” being improved. I firmly believe 99 percent of the people seeking a carry permit don’t have nefarious intentions.
I’m concerned about (a) the 1 percent that do and (b) the law of unintended consequences.
Really I’m just tired of (a) guns in bars advocates acting like everyone with a permit holder is as brave and noble as a Normandy Landing vet and (b) the lies and exaggerations, like saying no one with a gun permit in TN has ever committed a felony, or that a 20-year-old shooting in a non-alcohol-serving restaurant has a damn thing to do with this bill.
Again, emphasize how many other states already allow this and you’ll win the argument. Then again, the legislature’s fully on board, so no need, huh?
Wrong, dan. I questioned the logic of those proponents who argue that people should have guns in bars to “protect themselves” in the form of getting in a shootout at the OK Coral. It’s an absurd notion, one that has been a historical relic in our society for a very long time. You, in turn, twisted it into some “you calling us dumb rednecks” nonsense, which is the usual response when the absurdity of the underlying notion is raised. I will call that argument what it is- stupid- so make of that what you will.
Brass the 1% that do have bad inetntions will carry Permit or no permit.
At least when the permit holder the 1% or the 99% have shown they have respect for the law. and they have also put themselves in the Data Base, we are fingerprinted, and we must show we have an understanding of the law and when and when it is not a proper time to use the weapon.
Those you are worrying about are going to be armed anyway..
My Carrying makes you safer.. think about it a man walks in to the room with bad intent. He does not know if someone is carrying or who is carring..
2nd. if the situation turns deadly.. I would be in a postition to stop the crime in progress.
There was a Study done by the Universty of Chicago (the intent was to prove firearms cause Crime)… what was found out was that nationwide police stop ~10,000 crimes in progress. Armed Citizens stop ~2,500,000 crimes in progress. Showing the police are more likely to clean up the mess. Not prevent it.
This has been proven when my Daughter (16 at the time was home alone and the house was invaded)…
I showed her how to take a defencive position, with my pistol when she was younger.. She did everything I taught her.. She Survived, the Invaders left without a shot being fired. She Called 911 it took them 23 minutes to respond, and they knew she was armed and people were in the house.
[...] addresses gun nuts v. anti gunners and the chasm in their thought processes. It’s simpler than that. It boils down to personal sovereignty. Are you a citizen or a [...]
Wow. Comparing guns (inanimate objects)to rape (an action) is brilliant. Some common sense, indeed.
‘Neither should you mix the latter with carrying a gun.’
Most gun owners agree, which is why the law will still say ‘no drinking while strapped’.
And, cracker, that’s a fine idea. Let’s license all our rights.
Guns are just tools. Only in the hands of tools are they not.
So how do you know who the tools are?
You people don’t know what you’re getting yourself into.
Here in Florida, not only are you allowed to carry your concealed death machine into places like parks, children’s clothing stores, malls, churches, playgrounds, little league t-ball games, museums, Toys-R-Us, and restaurants that serve alcohol, *it’s even legal to HAVE A DRINK*.
Not a day goes by without hearing dozens of stories of CCW holders getting liquored up and shootouts over barstools and who took the last of the ketchup. Well, maybe not every day. Or every week. Heck, come to think about it, it happens so rarely that it’s almost like it’s not really a problem. Nor does it seem to happen enough in all the other states that allow people to arm themselves in restaurants that serve booze.
Man, maybe people are just freaking out because they’re hoplophobes and not because facts and statistics back them up.
So. If this is going to pose a problem in TN, why isn’t it posing a problem anywhere else? Care to back up your assertions with FACTS and EVIDENCE?
Isn’t it ironic that proponents of guns in bars will say that concealed carry permit holders are responsible because only a few hundred out of 300,000 have had problems. The odds are infintismal, they say, that a permit holder is irresponsbile or, dare I say it, crazy.
But the proponents of guns in bars will say they MUST, absolutely MUST go armed to defend themselves because of a few examples of crazy people shooting up restaurants. So far, they have provided only two examples, neither from Tennessee. But somehow the proponents of guns in bars see a distinct possibility that they will be attacked in their favorite watering hole.
Please stop with the gun owners can defend people argument. First of all, the odds are slim that you’ll ever need to draw your weapon. Second of all, the odds are even slimmer that you’d even have time to take a shot.
Contrary to the belief of the proponents of guns in bars, life in Tennessee does not resemble the next installment in the “Die Hard” series.
“How many times when you are in a car do you think consciously, ‘My God, I am driving a very heavy piece of glass and steel with a tank of highly flammable liquid at high speeds near unprotected men, women and children. This a dangerous vehicle that could kill someone.’”
Hopefully, EVERY time I am operating the vehicle.
JaStep, I’ve defended my life with a firearm before and am alive because of it. Here are THOUSANDS of self defense stories - http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html
I’d like to see a similar compilation of deaths caused by careless, drunk, CCW holders. Because without those stats, you have no logical reason to ban them.
Next argument please.
Contrary to the belief of the proponents of guns in bars, life in Tennessee does not resemble the next installment in the “Die Hard” series.
Contrary to the belief of those who are opponents of guns in places that serve alcohol, life in TN nor the 30+ states that already allow it resemble the “wild west” as they so like to proclaim it would be.
As Robb Allen stated above, no one can provide any valid evidence that TN will turn into the wild west or that there would be problems with this law. With over 30 states already doing it (and some even allowing those that carry to DRINK), you would think that they would be posting links left and right defending their arguments with said evidence.
But back to the original part of this post by AC. Firearms are tools. You hope to never need one, but there are lot of people who like to prepare for the unthinkable because they understand the reality that evil exists in the world which acts outside of their control.
I’ve never had a flat tire, but I’m not going to throw out my spare tire and jack. It’s a tool. I’m sure people will come up with the arguments that you can’t compare this to a spare tire, but I realize your bias won’t allow you to give in despite lack of evidence (or logic for that matter).
I think SayUncle said it best on his blog…the real difference here with people is the answer to the following question: “Are you a citizen or a subject?”
By all means…carry on. Just don’t try to force everyone else to be subjects with you.
“First of all, the odds are slim that you’ll ever need to draw your weapon. Second of all, the odds are even slimmer that you’d even have time to take a shot.”
I pray that that’s the case every single time I go armed, but I am also smart enough to realize that the odds don’t always go in your favor 100% of the time.
Wow. Logic wins again. Amazing, isn’t it?
Evidence wins as well. Good comments, Robb.
Robb and Blake, your logic is laughable. You won’t change my mind, and I won’t change yours. Anyway . . .
Here’s my opinion. The odds are far, far greater that I will die in a car crash than the odds that I will wind up in some sort of shooting or that I will need to use deadly force to defend myself or a loved one . . .
But I get in my car every day and drive to work.
I choose not to live in fear. I see absolutely no point in going armed just for the highly unlikely possibility that I will need to defend myself.
However, I’ll defend your right to go armed because you feel otherwise . . .
Except in certain circumstances, those being circumstances in which armed people only increase the possibility of harm coming to innocent people.
Your faulty logic, paranoia, and John Wayne delusions blind you to the fact that allowing anyone to carry guns in bars does nothing other than increase the odds that harm will come to innocent people.
I don’t have a problem with people having permitted guns in their cars. I don’t have a problem with owners and managers of restaurants having guns (secured) on the premises. Beyond that, I think the
potential problems of gun-carry into restaurants outweigh any pros, particularly since the odds of your being attacked in a restaurant or its parking lot are so low.
I can see that some folks might be fearful of walking out into restaurant parking lots in some places — heck, the Wal-Mart parking lot in Columbia is a prime target area for criminals, even in daylight. This is true in many places. I can name some restaurant parking lots in Atlanta with which I am familiar and which are unnecessary nighttime risks for the sane. I just stayed away from them.
If a robber has a gun or knife trained on you, your chances of being hurt or killed will go up if you go for a gun at that point. Someone nearby might have a gun and intervene, but, again, the chances of the innocent people being injured or killed will go up, unless the innocent bystander with a gun is a trained military sniper.
In rape crisis intervention, we learned that the chances of a weapon being taken away from a woman and used against her are high — she has to use her own judgment and follow her gut feeling in her particular situation.
We also learned that if a male tries to force a female into a vehicle, she should do everything, take any risk, to prevent it and get away, because her chances of survival if she is forced into a vehicle are not good.
My sister was a military veteran trained in use of weapons. She was murdered in her home. Despite this tragedy and horror in our family, I do not lead my life in a fearful way, though I was unusually fearful and paranoid for about a year after her murder.
My brother carries a gun, but he is a military veteran and also a lawyer and former prosecutor who has received death threats. But I have never seen him carry a gun into a restaurant.
Donna got right to the heart of the matter. Yes, there are far too many tragic and heartbreaking stories like the one of her sister. A previous commentor gave a link to thousands of stories of people that were attacked. Thousands of stories in a country of over 300 million people. In other words, most Americans are never attacked.
Irrefutably, the overwhelming majority of Tennesseans will live their lives without ever being attacked in any way. Tennessee has never had a crazy person shoot up an Applebee’s or an O’Charley’s. Therefore, there is no reason that anyone should be allowed to carry a gun into such an establishment.
Finally, I trust our police. When they universally stand up in opposition to a bill, that’s usually enough for me to belive that bill is a bad idea.
Allowing guns in bars is a bad idea.
I’ll just add a couple of things. If you feel you must have a gun on you or nearby all the time, you may know something about your life and your future that only you can know, subconsciously. And if you are female and are going to use a weapon to defend yourself, don’t hesitate. Rehearse so that you don’t hesitate when you have positively identified the threat. It is in the second(s) of hesitation that the weapon can be taken away from you.
Donna
By your logic female police officers should not really be allowed to carry guns.
It seems to me there is more of a liability problem stemming from people drinking alchohol in a restaurant and driving away than people eating at a restaurant with a gun tucked away under their clothes.
What demonstrably causes more deaths and injuries-guns or alchohol? How can the state allow this to continue? If I’m driving around with my gun I don’t want another drunk plowing into me at one in the afternoon.
As far as trusting the police-are you kidding me? Have you seen the footage of the OHP wrestling with the EMT? The Oakland cop drawing his gun and killing the handcuffed guy face down on the ground? Have you Googled puppycide? Just curious.
Alcohol that is-what causes most mispellings lol?
“Your faulty logic, paranoia, and John Wayne delusions blind you to the fact that allowing anyone to carry guns in bars does nothing other than increase the odds that harm will come to innocent people.”
How is my logic faulty? If this were truly the case, why can’t you link to hundreds of stories of this happening all the time in Florida where not only can we carry, we can also have a drink (same rules apply as driving).
Why is it that every thing you fear-mongers are saying will happen simply don’t?
And the counter argument to your “increases the odds of innocent people getting hurt” is that technically (and unlike your position, provable with actual stories, facts, etc) it increases the odds that innocents will be less likely to get hurt as having the means to defend yourself more often than not scares away the criminal.
I love watching you all keep repeating the mantra of gun owners being in fear all the time when it is you that are scared. I carry practically everywhere. At some times, I am unable due to law or circumstances, and I do not cower at home because of it. You people, on the other hand, have harped on how you won’t go to a restaurant unless they have the “No Guns” sign. Who’s the fear laden one?
My firearm poses no risk to you unless you intend to harm me. Standing outside the Chili’s or sitting at the table, nothing changes except my GPS coordinates. You’ve all lived your lives around armed citizens so far and haven’t noticed anything. Having Riblets isn’t going to change a damned thing and yet you all are soiling yourselves over the thought.
The arguments that you guns in bars proponents continue to use are so laughably contradictory and fallacious. Do you even understand that?
On the one hand, you argue that permit holders are responsible people that can be trusted because only a few hundred out of 300,000 have had problems. I agree with you on that point. Then, on the other hand, you argue that law enforcement officials can’t be trusted because a few hundred out of MILLIONS have had problems.
I will ask you again to name me one time in the years that Tennessee has banned guns in bars that a Tennessean has needed a gun to fend off some crazy attacker . . .
You can’t because there has never been one.
Listen up all you John McClane wannabes, quit fixating on your paranoid obssession about the few attacks that have happened nationwide. The fact is that approximately 6 MILLION TENNESSEANS walk around daily without the slightest inclination to carry a handgun . . .
BECAUSE WE DON’T NEED ONE.
And we don’t want you packing heat in O’Charley’s.
Grow up. Take a deep breath. Odd are that the guy on the barstool next to you is not a member of Asian Dawn.
Finally, I know a number of people with carry permits. Not a single one of them supports the guns in bars bill. In fact, the overwhelming majority of Tennesseans oppose it.
I will ask you again to name me one time in the years that Tennessee has banned guns in bars that a Tennessean has needed a gun to fend off some crazy attacker . . .
You can’t because there has never been one.
This should read “fend off some crazy attacker shooting up a bar . . .”
JaStep:
Finally, I know a number of people with carry permits. Not a single one of them supports the guns in bars bill. In fact, the overwhelming majority of Tennesseans oppose it.
Really? So, you are saying that the majority of the legislators in this state ignored the will of their constituency? Not very likely, my friend.
As for your “friends” comment, I would reply that I know a lot of people with permits as well and NOT A SINGLE ONE of them opposes it. By and large, permit holders would prefer less red tape in the carrying process. Why would a holder want another layer of risk that arises from the problems caused by the current law? It makes no sense.
ACK,
Guns are manufactured to kill. Cars are not. Cars *can* kill but that is not their primary function. Gun, on the other hand, have on function and one function only.
Therefore, your analogy is a false one.
Guns are not manufactured to kill.
They are manufactured to fire projectiles.
Intent matters. If I shoot a store owner while taking his money, that is murder. If I shoot a criminal making threats to kill me while he is robbing my liquor store, that is justifiable homicide, self defense, not a crime.
Self defense is a human right. You do not have the ability to remove that right from me.
JaStep, it would appear as though you are unfamiliar with recent events. On April Second, Benjamin and Nicole Goeser went to work at a bar in Nashville. Given that they were going into a bar, Nicole (who had a handgun carry permit) left her firearm in their car as permit-holders were required to do. That night, Mrs. Goeser watched as her husband was shot to death by a deranged individual who was apparently infatuated with her. This individual did not have a permit, and, strangely, was not deterred by Tennessee state laws prohibiting from carrying a firearm without a permit, from entering a bar with a firearm, or from killing someone with a firearm.
Am I saying that Mrs. Goeser having her pistol with her would have kept Mr. Goeser alive? Absolutely not - I have no way of definitively making that manner of prediction. However, I am saying that if she had her firearm, she might have been able to defend her husband… and, after all, if it saves one life…
Mrs. Goeser has since attempted to contact our Governor’s office to talk with him concerning HB0962 - his office has ignored all such communications.
I would recommend you attempt to do your homework before making such patently fallacious statements in the future.
False. Firearms are manufactured to project small pieces of metal and high velocities. If I use those small pieces of metal to perforate paper, then the firearm is fulfilling its purpose. If I use those small pieces of metal to perforate someone who would do harm to me or my wife, then the firearm is fulfilling its purpose.
Intent is non-transferrable, and inanimate objects (like firearms) are completely incapable of having intents of their own.
JaStep
Are our rights based on needs?
I mean-thousands of women walk around every election and don’t feel the NEED to vote. Why did we bother giving all the rest of them the RIGHT?
I guess you roll like Andrew Jackson, who beat off a would be assasin with his cane after the guy’s pistols misfired. I hope I can be a badass like you someday lol!
SB
I’m with Mikee. My guns have never killed anything before-what have I been doing wrong lol?
How do you feel about the keeping and bearing of ramsets?
Get a clue all you gun nuts. The overwhelming majority of Tennesseans - about 6 million as many of us have repeatedly pointed out - don’t want you carrying guns in restaurants with us. Yes, I think the idiots in the state legislature voted against the will of the majority. And the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the right to bear arms can be reasonably restricted.
Grow up and quit pretending you are in an episode of “Gunsmoke.”
Only 210,000 permit holders. You are a vast minority. You DO NOT represent mainstream thought in Tennessee.
Why don’t you update your references Ben? You are at much more risk eating in a Cabbot Cove diner with Angela Landsbury than at O’Charlies with me. Just make sure your spinach dip didn’t get picked in Mexico.
Isn’t vast minority an oxymoron lol?
Ben
BTW-how many of those 6 million Tenneseans you keep touting as against restaurant carry are of age to vote and actually do?
All 210,000 permit holders are of voting age-no? That’s a pretty solid bloc.
I live in PA, where it is legal to carry guns into bars and restaurants. I don’t carry often, but when I do, I don’t drink.
I don’t carry because I am concerned about what will happen in the bar. I carry because I have some concern about what might happen between leaving the bar and getting into my car.
“Guns are manufactured to kill. Cars are not. Cars *can* kill but that is not their primary function. Gun, on the other hand, have on function and one function only.”
Guns are sold with the presumption that they will be used for lawful purposes. The killing that they are designed to do is lawful killing — something that a person is entitled to do, just as a person is entitled to drive a car.
Homicide in self-defense or the defense of others is a virtuous act.
Really, I don’t see what’s so hard about any of this.
Everytime i hop on my motorcycle, i think i am one cell-phone zombie away from death. But i accept it because i’m paying attention. With a car, its just “stay within the lines and don’t do anything unexpected.” CCW? Its like my wallet. I don’t check it until i need to pull out a DL or cash. I like my culturally ingrained prejudice towards firearms. But i didn’t grow up in a household that didn’t shy from corporal punishment if i were to fun with the gun or run into the street when i was a kid. But to cater to the lowest common denominator outside of the world of mathematics? That is the job of diana moon glampers. So what do you do with the people that don’t need handicaps? Cater the life experience around an IQ of 20 to 84? Or does that cater to us kids that didn’t lose a hand to sticking it in a harvester when we was youngins? Sure doesn’t help the stereotype that some city folk had horrid parents (and a school system) that raised them to be beings incapable of rational thought partially because they lacked emphasis on personal responsibility and that even one decision could alter the entire course of one’s life. I think i hear big ben and a modem handshaking….
I don’t live in Tennessee, but I can think of several people in Tennessee who I’m sure wish permits were easier to get and that more people had them. Why don’t you ask the parents of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom about how they feel about gun permits? You think they wish Chris had had a gun that night?
More to the point, do you really think that the feral animals sitting in jail for that atrocity ARE THE ONLY ONES OUT THERE? If you do, you’re obviously a reality-challenged lefty. People who see the world as it is realize that you’re responsible for yourself, that the bad guys have the advantage of being able to pick where and when to attack, and your obligation as a regular citizen is to be prepared to defend yourself at a moment’s notice, because that’s all you may have.
Don’t believe that? There have been recent shootings in churches, hospitals, supermarkets, courts and pretty much anyplace else you can think of. The animals out there commit the most heinous of crimes without consideration. Even if caught and expeditiously tried, they are looking at a decade or more before they MIGHT have to face the death penalty. That’s outside the realm of conscious thought for most of them, living as they do from day to day.
If you want to be safe, you need to do what it takes to be safe knowing that a)no one cares as much about you and yours as you do, and b)the civil servants most blissfully ignorant people depend on to protect them get just as much money for eating donuts as they do for shooting it out with criminals.
Criminals SELECT victims and fear attracts them. People who have the means at hand to protect themselves are a lot less fearful, therefore a lot less likely to be selected as a victim. They can also fight back, which saves a lot more lives than it costs.
If some lib like Ben doesn’t want to carry, that’s his business. I’ll hope, for his sake, that he doesn’t have any appointments in his future with some other Lemaricus or Letalvis and friends.
encouraging open shootouts in bars when people have been drinking.
Right. Because that is the idea behind the whole thing.
And by the same argument, if you’re part of a family where incest, sexual violence, and rape is part of your everyday experience, you don’t see incest as a very big deal.
But it’s still wrong
Wow.
I mean, just wow. How far off the deep end can you actually go with this?
Seriously. You do understand the difference between the actions of a legislature and responsible citizens and rape, which is illegal, don’t you?
It appears you can not.
Please stop with the gun owners can defend people argument. First of all, the odds are slim that you’ll ever need to draw your weapon. Second of all, the odds are even slimmer that you’d even have time to take a shot.
Um, these [idiotic] assertions are not fact.
You do grasp this, don’t you?
Dead on post, Adam. Sadly, you predicted the internalized nature of the responses. Fish. Barrel. Gun.
I’m noticing a lot of out of staters on these guns threads since yesterday. Looks like that Tennessee Firearms Association email went out nationwide.
Bring in the outside agitators, boys.
[...] Link Dump Published June 1, 2009 Uncategorized 0 Comments Every Waking Moment (Kleinheider) Great post about guns and gun [...]
Ben appears to be an angry and paranoid.
We already know concealed carry permits don’t turn places into the OK Corral. In fact, they tend to correlate with a drop in crime.
We already know criminals will always have guns wherever they want to have guns. The only issue is: should we let law abiding citizens be able to defend themselves? To Ben and many others the answer is ‘no’. They don’t want you in charge of deciding what steps will be taken to safeguard your life, they want to control it. If they deem the risk to your life ‘acceptable’ they are quite comfortable telling you your right to defend yourself, recognized in the constitution, isn’t really something you need or should have.
The arrogance and hubris of people who think like Ben is quite astounding.
I saw a comment earlier saying that guns, if used, kill 100% of the time. This is sheer idiocy. In a huge proportion of self defense cases, the gun isn’t even fired at all. Merely showing an intent to resist is enough to deter the criminal and make him opt for easier prey (hopefully, in a just world, he’d settle on some gun control advocates). Often shots are fired but they neither wound nor kill the assailant.
I also saw a comment saying “A woman with a weapon is much much more likely to be injured than a woman without a weapon!” This too is obviously false. If it were true, we wouldn’t give female police officers weapons.
The fact is if you are armed and resist, your odds of survival are much better than if you do not. You take control of your fate into your own hands.
And that, I believe, is the motive behind most anti gun zealots. They don’t want you to be in control of your life, they want to be in control of your life. So they utter vacuous platitudes like “Go along with the attacker and no one will get hurt, wait for the police”. The police are not legally bound to protect you and will almost never be there in any case.
Total b.s., JD. I’ve said repeatedly that I support the right to bear arms, just not in bars. I’ve also said repeatedly that we have never had an incident in Tennessee in which someone shot up an O’Charley’s or an Applebees, so why does anyone feel a need to go strapped in these establishments?
Do you really think that the 6 million Tennesseans that do not have carry permits agree with guns in bars, JD? If you do, you haven’t spoken to many Tennesseans.
And don’t give me any of this “Oh, my, we’re less free because we can’t pack heat in Stoney River” whining. Reasonable people accept that there are some things we can’t do because of the potential of harm coming to others.
Tell us, JD. Where do you live? Are you just another gun nut troll from another state or are you a paid staffer of the NRA?
I lived in TN until a few years ago and held a valid TN CCW permit. I am also an officer in a Military Police NG unit and a veteran.
A gun not in your hand cannot be used to defend your life. Seconds. Mere seconds. That is how long the entire engagement will last. You either display or use deadly force OR you are a victim. Having a gun out in the car or secured in an office does no good. If your state has CCW on the books, then setting an arbitrary limit on where and when has to be given great effort. Violence happens quickly and without warning. The response has to occur with the same speed.
Frequency and statistics have to be understood in context. The number of CCW holders who have or have not broken the law is not a decision point in this argument. I think the better or more valid statistic is the number of times that a gun has been displayed and the offender has fled. It is often projected in the millions. I have no source at the moment, but in the lw enforcement community we accept as a matter of fact that actual occurences of crimes involving guns are far more infrequent than crimes that are diffused by display or use of a gun.
Yes, crime is infrequent. It is rare. But it could be reduced even further as criminals accept that they are more likely to encounter an armed populace. There are numerous studies of the frequency of crimes-involving guns and the local carry laws. When a population is allowed to legally carry concealed handguns, violent crime is reduced.
Now, think about gun-free zones. The school shootings are very infrequent. Yet, think of the innocent lives that would have been spared had the perps been confronted by a licensed gun-carrying citizen.
We should and can count on police within the limits of their abilities. They cannot offer us unlimited protection. They cannot respond within minutes of all calls. They cannot foresee or predict criminal behavior. They are not a good replacement for personal protection.
I don’t own a firearm. Never have. I’ve never shot one. I’ve never even touched one.
But somehow, mirabile dictu, I’ve never developed a phobia to them, unlike way too many of the “Nays” here. (I do hope it’s a phobia (irrational fear); otherwise, we are simply witnessing a near-total absence of reasoning skills.)
How many states besides Tennessee currently let their citizens carry concealed weapons in restaurants that serve alcohol? I believe it’s over 30.
How many shootouts have occurred there? I believe it’s none to date.
I’ve been in a food & beverage manager for a motel management company and people have carried in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol from day 1, legally or not.
“Sid,” “Sarah,” and “Jim” — more NRA trolls. Not a single one lives in Tennessee. We Tennesseans have the right to control our own state, and we Tennesseans don’t want guns in bars.
Actual Tennessean, I’m another Sid who says that guns are O.K. anywhere as long as the gun is being carried by a licensed holder of the gun permit. And criminals have guns in bars, so I want the right to be armed if I choose to. It’s elitist to think that the gov. and his wife can be protected by arms carrying body guards and we can’t protect ourselves.
“Elitist”? Way to parrot those talking points from Steve Gill.
I’ll ask you the same question I have asked every guns in bars proponent, Sidney - In all of the years that Tennessee has barred carrying guns in bars, name me one incident in which an O’Charley’s or an Applebee’s or that type of establishment IN TENNESSEE has been shot up. Then tell me why you need a gun in those establishments, even though the 6 million Tennesseans without carry permits don’t feel the need to carry guns in them.
Tell me, “Actual Tennessean,” are you familiar with the term “ad hominem?”
Anyhow, since I’m obviously a “fake Tennessean,” I obviously know nothing about how Tennessee is run. Here I thought that “actual Tennesseans” exercised their right to control their own state by electing a legislature. This misunderstanding of mine obviously proves that I am an inhabitant of Upper Volta whose reasoning is worthless.
(I do so apologize if this comes across as snarky. After all, you were kind enough to go out of your way to demonstrate the validity of my previous comment.)
Sarah, are you familiar with the term “Astroturf”? A number of commentors have suddenly popped up on these guns in bars threads repeating the same talking points. You are either responding to a request from the NRA or Tennessee Firearms Association to make comments or you work for the NRA or Tennessee Firearms Association.
Which illustrates an important point — a vocal minority of Tennesseans think its a reasonable idea to allow guns in bars. The six million Tennesseans that do not have carry permits do not agree with this minority. Our state legislators are cowards that fear NRA attack ads in their next elections.
Well Ben, let me address your comment substantively.
You imply that I (and other “pro-gun” commenters are part of an astroturf campaign.
1. What makes you confident that we are the astroturfers, and not, say, people such as “longtime” commenter “Actual Tennessean?” Do you want to quiz me regarding this blog? Do you think there is no organized “anti-gun” campaign, or that they have a morally superior approach to campaigning?
2. That accusation of astrotrufing is itself ad hominem. Instead of addressing the issue, you are explicitly accusing me of being either a brainwashed tool of “pro-gun” interests, or of being paid off by them.
3. “Which illustrates an important point.” How exactly?
4. “The six million Tennesseans that do not have carry permits do not agree with this minority.” Brilliant logic! Similarly, the five million Tennesseans who are not Black (or members of the NAACP) are in favor of re-instituting slavery.
5. If six million Tennesseans (96+ %) are against guns in bars (and restaurants!), why in Heaven’s name would legislators fear NRA attack ads? Do NRA attacks ads have dark magical powers which can brainwash those poor, innocent six million?
6. If these six million are indeed so opposed to guns in bars (and restaurants!), then why should this law constitute any problem at all, given that the law gives establishment owners an opt-out?
I am intrigued to see that so many people seem to think that O’Charley’s and other restaurants are classified as “Bars”. Yes, they serve alcohol but last time I checked, bars were an age restricted venue and that is defined in this right-to-carry law as a place where you CANNOT take a firearm.
You are not allowed to drink ANYWHERE and carry a firearm with a permit, regardless of being in a “bar” or a “restaurant”. It’s written into the basic handgun carry laws and restated in this new law that would allow you carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol.
Even if this law is passed and there isn’t a shooting in a restaurant for the next 100 years what difference would that make? It wouldn’t hurt anything and would solve some issues. Such as…
Myself and my friends that are law-abiding permit holders have to leave our guns locked in our cars when we go to lunch, or when we go to pick up and order for take out. Even if you have a gun locked in your car and in a safe, you cannot tell me that no one has ever had their gun stolen from there car.
The worse things get with the economy the more we will see crime rise and criminals will start taking more risks. Criminals do not care where you can or cannot take guns. They don’t get permits and they don’t care about other people’s lives.
If I get robbed, stabbed, shot, raped, or beaten in a restaurant, a public park, or any other place regardless of whether I can or cannot take my firearm. Are you going to pay for my pain and suffering, take care of my bills, pay my medical expenses, and console my family? I think not.
Argue all you want. I can see some valid points from both sides of this, and in my opinion they have already been addressed by reiterating that you cannot drink alcohol and carry a firearm and that you cannot bring it into an age restricted venue.
In this figure of 6 million that do not have carry permits, how many of them do not support restaurant carry? Also how many of them are Felons, have an Order of Protection against them, have been convicted of Domestic Violence, or Illegally carry a firearm? How many are children? If you are going to use numbers and figures, at least try and make them accurate numbers and figures.
According to
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/47000.html
In the 2007 Census only 4,729,529.8 Tennesseans were 18 years of age or older.
That figure comes to 1,485,358.2 children. That took 30 seconds to find and calculate.
And one more point I would like to make somewhat.
If alcohol causes people to fight, argue, and cause all of these problems, then why is it legal in the first place? Especially when people drink in restaurants where entire families eat? And people choose to drink and drive. Why not apply common sense to laws regarding alcohol?
You wear a seatbelt when you drive, don’t you? A firearm for self-defense is just like a seatbelt, you may never need it, but God help you when you do.
Thank you.
well there’s a link to an ocharleys robbery/ fatal shooting in murfeesboro from last year…(2/3/08) I don’t believe they caught the guy…
http://wgns.wordpress.com/2008/02/03/manager-killed-early-sunday-at-ocharleys/
I live, vote and eat in TN
In addition to the ocharleys shooting:
In 2007 two people were shot and killed by robbers in bellacinos pizza.
April 29 of this year, Ben Goeser was shot and killed at Johnny’s sports bar in nashville.
And wasn’t someone just carjacked in green hills mall last week?
I’m not picking a side, just responding to ben’s request.
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