It Would Have Happened To Anyone

18 Responses to “It Would Have Happened To Anyone”

1. Aunt B. writes
   July 23rd, 2008 11:51 am

   Because had she remained at large, she would have been forced to disrobe in front of a complete stranger who was not a part of the medical team, shackled to a bed, and had her baby ripped from her arms?

   What kind of stupid question is that?

2. Aunt B. writes
   July 23rd, 2008 11:52 am

   Sorry. That was a little harsh.

3. Kleinheider writes
   July 23rd, 2008 11:53 am

   Had there been complications, both baby and mother could have died in childbirth.

   The fact is, under the laws of our land, she was a criminal. And as you say, nothing different happened to her than would have happened to any other pregnant woman arrested.

   Your beef seems to be with a program that effectively enforces our current laws. The woman was, in fact, guilty was she not? She is an illegal immigrant and by virtue of her return after deportation, a felon.

   The story has gotten everyone whipped up into a frenzy but when you break it down, this was not an extreme situation.

   A woman was arrested, properly. She was, by her own admission, guilty. Nothing happened to her that would not have happened to any other woman in custody AND she was released when, in fact, she could have been lawfully held because of her previous deportation.

   Is this really the outrage you and Chavez are making it out to be?

4. Rachel writes
   July 23rd, 2008 11:54 am

   Well, the birth happened at Metro General, and as she was picked up on Bransford leaving from a prenatal appointment, I can only assume that appt happened at the Vine Hill Community Clinic. Both of these are facilities are safety nets for people of low income, those with no insurance. So the answer to your question would be, “Uh, probably not.” And, as B points out, “at large” she would not have been shackled, would not have been denied use of a breast pump, and so on.

5. Sean Braisted writes
   July 23rd, 2008 12:10 pm

   I think its outrageous the way we treat non-violent offenders, be they violators of an outdated immigration policy, or violators of an outdated War on Drugs policy.

6. Kleinheider writes
   July 23rd, 2008 12:22 pm

   she was picked up on Bransford leaving from a prenatal appointment, I can only assume that appt happened at the Vine Hill Community Clinic.

   That’s a good point. Medical care in jail is often better than that which transient and low-income people get on the outside, maybe not in this case, but that is often the case.

   The point is the woman was a criminal and she was treated just like anyone else would have been and, in fact, accommodations were made because of the recent birth to alleviate the situation.

   The Sheriff’s Department could have kept her in custody. They didn’t. No points for that?

7. Kleinheider writes
   July 23rd, 2008 12:28 pm

   I think its outrageous the way we treat non-violent offenders, be they violators of an outdated immigration policy, or violators of an outdated War on Drugs policy.

   Okay, fine, but your beef is with the criminal justice system then. Chavez et al are whipping up all this righteous indignation on the immigration issue when this really has less to do with that issue than what you are talking about.

8. Sean Braisted writes
   July 23rd, 2008 12:41 pm

   This is why I generally shy away from talking about criminal law; save the one example of Claudia Nunez.

9. Aunt B. writes
   July 23rd, 2008 1:28 pm

   Kleinheider, how did the arresting officer know she’d been deported?

10. Aunt B. writes
    July 23rd, 2008 1:36 pm

    Arugh! I hit return too soon. As I said in my post, no one is supposed to be run against ICE’s database until they are in the Sheriff’s custody–i.e. in jail. She’s not an American citizen, so she doesn’t have a social security number, so what magic database did the Berry Hill cop run her through that told him she was here illegally?

    Even assuming that there was some magical database where he discovered some Juana Villegas had been deported back in 1996, how would he have known that was the Juana Villegas he was faced with?

    When he pulled her over, all he knew about her was that she was a non-citizen, residing here, who didn’t have a driver’s license.

    Yippy-skippy for him that she turned out to be here illegally and in defiance of a deportation order, BUT HE DIDN’T KNOW THAT when he arrested her (unless he did, in which case, that’s a story maybe y’all should look into).

    As I said in my post, police on the street are not supposed to be finding reasons to arrest people just to run them against the ICE database, but what this tells us is that they do. That’s a problem.

    The fact that we found out about this problem because he did it to a pregnant woman when he didn’t have to just goes to show you how screwed up this is.

11. Mack writes
    July 23rd, 2008 2:56 pm

    For heaven’s sake, ACK, everyone in Tenn has at some point violated the letter of the law. Ever buy something online and fail to remit the proper sales tax to the State? Or run across the border to buy smokes? Or drive to fast? Forget a turn signal?

    287(g) was sold to us as a way to get dangerous, undocumented criminals deported quickly. Never mind that they can easily return. (And many have) In fact, at least one has already been arrested here AFTER being deported under 287(g). Instead, local police are using no discretion available to them by Tennessee law, because they view any Hispanic without I.D. as “dangerous.” Its ridiculous to suggest this would have happened to an blond woman from Green Hills that forgot her license at home.

12. Kleinheider writes
    July 23rd, 2008 3:25 pm

    For heaven’s sake, ACK, everyone in Tenn has at some point violated the letter of the law. Ever buy something online and fail to remit the proper sales tax to the State? Or run across the border to buy smokes? Or drive to fast? Forget a turn signal?

    This sort of just nails the divide on immigration right there. You see, I simply don’t think that violating immigration laws are at all akin to your examples above.

    For a nation to be a nation it has to actually mean something to be a citizen of it.

    I understand why illegals come here and I do sympathize. I might even do the same thing in the same situation.

    However, if I was caught, I would understand that doing what I did has consquences.

    One has to see their nation as a sorta of extended family. You are born into it, you marry into it, or you are invited into it. Anyone else is someone else.

    Now different people have a more modern understanding of the nation-state, borders and national identity in general. To them, national identity is a malleable, transitory thing.

    To them, moving across some arbitrary border to pursue their selfish interests is akin to jaywalking.

    Not to me.

13. DinTN writes
    July 23rd, 2008 3:56 pm

    “She is an illegal immigrant and by virtue of her return after deportation, a felon.”
    By all legitimate news reports, she never left the country so in fact she never returned. She chose to ignore the deportation order and stayed.
    Legal Latinos should be appauled over the way this woman is portrayed as a victim and crying it was racially motivated!
    This illegal baby maker was ordered deported back in the 90’s; an order she deliberately refused to obey. She chose to stay in this country long enough to deliver four (count them! 1! 2! 3! 4!!) anchor babies! Try asking yourself, just who paid for those deliveries?

    According to Tim A. Chávez :
    “Here is all that Juana Villegas DeLaPaz did wrong in the 2800 block of Bransford, according to one advocate:She was pulled over by the Berry Hill Police Department as she left a prenatal clinic. She had her three other children with her. She showed a current car registration but had no license. She also showed a matricular card.”

    How blind can a pro-illegal be!? He should be the legal Latino’s worst enemy defending this woman while ignoring others who play by the rules…also suffering.

    She, technically, has been running from from the law from the very beginning when she refused to leave when ordered, therefore she is an immigration fugitive and likely to do it again. She’s a criminal and all criminals are handcuffed even in a hospital, not just Mexicans!
    Thousands of women go into labor while incarcerated, and they stay handcuffed too.
    What about her husband? Is he an illegal also? Does he work? If he does, whose identity is he using for employment? Is he paying taxes to cover the cost of all those kids education?
    Defending her is SOooo not fair to all the legal Latinos, (Hispanic, Mexicans, etc.) that have jumped through all the hoops and payed thousands of dollars to do the right thing? How about all the ones who have made a conscious decision to wait their turn? Do you not think it is hurting them and their families seeing what she is doing and you jump to the aide and demand sympathy for someone who abuses and discredits the reputation of all Latinos adding fuel to the illegal immigration fire?
    You may not think so, but most Americans DO respect Mexicans who come here and live by the same rules all citizens are expected to live by.

14. Mack writes
    July 23rd, 2008 4:05 pm

    moving across some arbitrary border

    Well, if you think about it, all borders are arbitrary.

    But heres the thing, ACK…It absolutely DOES mean something to be an American citizen. They (the undocumented) don’t by their mere presence threaten our sovereignty. They cannot vote, (though, did you know that they can serve in our Armed Forces? In fact, we have roughly 40,000 serving now, many of those in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Being a citizen should mean something, and should be cherished and exercised at every opportunity. But there is no path for these people to come here legally. An 18 year wait is a life sentence. I say make the path difficult as hell, so only those that really want it get it. But the others, who simply want to work should have a method available to do so. We can argue over how many if you want…

15. Joe P. writes
    July 23rd, 2008 4:36 pm

    I’ve been reading and pondering on this story for a few days and the story does point to some very troubling issues.

    First, let’s be honest - she was Hispanic and had no license and that most likely was the motivating factor to arrest her and take her into custody: she fit a certain profile.

    The NYTimes says: “After Mrs. Villegas was taken to the Davidson County jail, a federal immigration agent working there as part of the cooperation agreement conducted a background check. It showed that Mrs. Villegas was an illegal immigrant who had been deported once from the United States in March 1996, Karla Weikal, a spokeswoman for the county sheriff, said. She had no other criminal record.”
    —
    “On July 8, Mrs. Villegas was taken to court, where she pleaded guilty to driving without a license and was sentenced to time served. Immigration agents immediately released her while a deportation case proceeds, following a policy adopted last year by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement to avoid separating babies from nursing mothers.”

    Chavez noted in one of his posts on the case:
    “* From 4/16-/07 to June 30 of this year, the total, foreign-born people booked and interviewed — 5,037.

    *Total placed in removal(deportation) proceedings — 3,508.

    Do the math. That leaves 1,529 immigrants wrongly questioned over their legal status in this country over the past 14 months.”

    So really, individuals, pregnant or not, male or female, are being targeted based on one thing: race. That’s an aspect of the 287 G program that merits much consideration. For instance, shouldn’t the program be more focused on crime-solving rather than on racial perceptions or non-violent offenses?

    There’s also another whole set of issues here regarding how our jail system treats pregnant women who are in custody - it’s a standard practice which should be altered based on the person in custody, and that restraints should be used in only extreme circumstances.

    Oh I know - the prevailing mood these days is that anyone in any jail deserves any difficulty they might endure, regardless of the reason the person is jailed. But that mindset is creating critical lapses in the concept and application of Justice, which, as your headline for this post says, could happen to anyone.

16. Aunt B. writes
    July 23rd, 2008 5:34 pm

    “You are born into it, you marry into it, or you are invited into it. Anyone else is someone else.”

    Really, Kleinheider? You think your/our people were invited here? Were welcomed here? I’m sure the family of Robert Prager might have a slightly different perspective.

    Or are you not claiming to be an American?

    Also, who, in this little formula, gets to do the inviting? Is it not enough that American companies welcome these folks with open arms into our workplaces? Is it not enough that Americans open their homes and their beds to these folks? Is it not enough that their children are “us”? Who gets to count as the legitimate welcoming committee?

17. Donna Locke writes
    July 24th, 2008 12:43 am

    Well, here is who is not supposed to be welcome. But, as we’ve seen, law is one thing, policy is another. Our immigration laws exist to protect U.S. citizens and their homeland. The original intent of those laws has been scrambled and turned on its head. Who decides who immigrates to the United States now? Why, thanks to chain migration policy, it is immigrants themselves; the rest of us haven’t much say; we’re simply expected to support them all.

    By the way, the United States is not a nation of immigrants. Most Americans were born here, and the number was higher, more than 90 percent, before the massive influx of immigrants during the past 20 to 30 years. Southern natives, especially, carry American Indian genes, so we aren’t so recent and we’re already mixed. You know what, I hear the gene cries. Ponder on that.

    The United States has allowed itself to be regarded as a large dinner table the rest of the world is free, even encouraged, to help themselves from on their own terms. We are victims of our ideals taken to the extreme and those inside and outside our country who use our ideals against us. The United States, like all things in this world, was born with a fatal flaw. We can wise up or become yet another failed experiment.

    Okay, back to resting my eyes.

18. Patti writes
    August 4th, 2008 9:05 am

    Who paid for the birth? Davidson County?

    If she had given birth as a free woman, Medicaid would have paid for her days in the hospital only. That’s policy for undocumented aliens who intend to stay in this country and give birth here.

    If Davidson County paid, then the county really screwed itself. This was silly cost-shifting. Medicaid is half-state and half-federal money.
    Money will be determining factor if Davidson County makes any changes.

    I doubt that she will be deported this time if she has several US-citizen children.